320813 HUMAN RIGHTS Secretry interviewed Pho Kru, English Version.docx

the Lord Buddha. And in practicing the teachings of the Lord Buddha and Phra Bodhirak, these people get their own result and the group becomes bigger. The result is much clearer and it is very distinctive. And that's why the differences stand out very clearly. And I think that because the result is very clear and very strong, then the conflict becomes stronger.

English : Could I ask you for our friends who speak only English. May I ask in English please? You speak about differences, very clear differences, between the community here and the community at Wat Suan Moak. Could you evaluate these differences? In what way are the results here different to the results achieved at Wat Suan Moak.

Interpreter : The difference between Santi Asoke and Suan Moak, according to the word, the result of the practice is that one of the practices in the Lord Buddha's teaching is to get detached from riches, material, from glory and from power and from flattery.

Interpreter : The difference is in one very important point is that the objective of the practice according to the Lord Buddha and to Santi Asoke is to get detached from what you call กิเลส (passion) that is called โลกธรรม. That is riches, materials, glory and power and all the things that people want to get for worldly happiness. For Santi Asoke, Phra Bodhirak teaches us to get away from those things, to detach ourselves from those things, from material riches, from worldly happiness, from all the glory, all the more than things. And the result is that we can do that. Most of the people who follow Phra Bodhirak can do that very easily. They can drop these things. They can detach themselves from these things. But at Suan Moak, there is a lot of talk, a lot of words. But people don't get detached from these worldly things. They don't really get detached from their titles, from their riches, from their happiness, from all these things. And the differences are very distinctive because we can now see two groups of people. Our group is the group who get detached from these things towards the Lord Buddha's foot path. And the group of Suan Moak, they are still attached to all these words more than things. But their words are just they practice Buddhism and they try to get detached. They don't detach themselves from these things.

A man : Have you covered... Is the difference due to intensive meditation practices? English : The actual practice rather. English :Do you practice meditation?

A man : Could I ask please, is the difference of which you speak, the result of a strong program of meditation and a strong discipline from each day? Interpreter : You said the difference in comparison to what?

A man :Here and Suan Moak.

Interpreter : The current word that is popular in European language ........

Interpreter : Is the word "meditation" which in reality in Buddhism, it should be called "Samma Samadi". And if people understand that Samadi, meditation is the same word with Samma Samadi then we have to have time to explain and to have common understanding first. Because the word meditation and Samma Samadi are totally different. And from what you mean by meditation is what? What do you mean by meditation?

A man : I mean by meditation to sit quietly and to gently focus the mind on something like the breath and as a result of doing this to calm the mind to peace and tranquility, Samadi in order that one may have insight into the cause of suffering.

Interpreter : From what he understood from your explanation, he said that that is a more or less common misunderstanding among a lot of people because that activity which you call meditation is totally different from Samma Samadi of the Lord Buddha. The word meditation according to your interpretation might be meditation but it's not Samma Samadi. Samma Samadi whereas we don't find any exact word in occidental language, we just repeat it Samma Samadi, ok? And he will explain afterwards what Samma Samadi is. So, ok?

Interpreter : The meditation according to your understanding, we can do it and we do it, too. But that is not Sammma Samadi of the Lord Buddha. Interpreter : Samma Samadi of the Lord Buddha is the result of other 7 steps of Samma. We can divide it into 5 activities, mental activities, verbal activities, physical activities, and daily life activities. Those activities will have to be Samma Sangkapa, Samma Waja, Samma Kammanta, Samma Acheewa. That means we don't have to sit still. But the concentration for good will come with the work, with the good practice of the mental of mentality, of verbal, of physical, and of our daily life. In addition with Samma Tithi that means to have the right thought. Samma Wayama, the right effort and Samma Sati, the right concentration. And all these 7 Samma will work together and then the result is Samma Samadi. Sorry, it's written in this small book and you can have a look at it.

A man : Thank you for your explanation. I agree with what you have said. And my own practice, which is Zen, says that sitting meditation is only part of the practice that throughout the day one must maintain mindfulness of the emotions and awareness of what one is doing. And in this way one's sitting meditation is strengthened and the sitting meditation helps the daily awareness. And the different parts of this practice helps one another.

Interpreter : He said that you're right that it will help but that's not the main activity.

Interpreter : It's not direct with the discipline of the Lord Buddha, with the teaching of the Lord Buddha. Because the Lord Buddha teaches the Eightfold Path. And this thing is in the Eightfold Path. Things that are not in the Eightfold Path, then it is not direct to the theory.

Interpreter : It's one of the support. But it's not the main theory.

English : If I might ask, what is missing in what Khun Ken has just said? That sitting meditation is not whole. It must apply that we are mindful in Mahayan ......, body, mind and speech and working always with the บารมี (prestige). What is missing from what Khun Ken was saying?

Interpreter : What is missing is the Eightfold Path because sitting position is not in the Eightfold Path. Just controlling the mind is not the whole Eightfold Path.

English :We are in agreement then.

Interpreter : So you ask what is missing then all of the other parts are missing. English : Which are those?

Interpreter :The Eightfold Path. It includes the right action, right word .........

English : What is missing .... if you find the Eightfold Path, if you meditate and if you develop awareness of every thought, word, action in your life. Is this not part of the Path? Interpreter :Yes!

English : Then we have no disagreement. Interpreter :Yes, but the difference is between us and between Suan Moak. English : There must be people at very many levels practicing at Wat Suan Moak. I think there are many misunderstandings about meditation. Many people think meditation is as you have just explained. Many people think it is the whole but it is not. It is simply an aid to the whole. I think there is much misunderstanding about meditation. But at Wat Suan Moak there must be people practicing at many different levels. So I'm sure there are people practicing very well with everything that you have just described. As well as there are those who perhaps are still unaware of the whole part.

Interpreter : He has no problem with that. He only says that if you... I hear you ask him, he answers. And you asked him to compare with Suan Moak and that's what he said and if you want to study in detail, here you can study in detail. Or if you want to study over there in detail, you can also do that.

English : Perhaps what you are saying is that here you have a community who are all working to develop in a very mindful way. Or following the path as well as you possibly can. Whereas at Suan Moak there may be some, a few but for the main part, perhaps people more interested intellectually than practically.

Interpreter : It might be as you say that people here are more, give more effort on the Eightfold Path and we are more dedicated to the Eightfold Path. That's why we have more results and the result is much clearer than anywhere else.

A man : Could you please comment and explain how the practice and the teachings here differs from that of forest monks like Venerable Ajarn Cha, please.

Interpreter : Forest monks for example Ajarn Cha follows more closely to Suan Moak's principles but the people, the followers of Ajarn Cha and Ajarn Cha himself, are more dedicated to Sila than Suan Moak.

Interpreter : Ajarn Cha and his followers have the same principle concept according to Suan Moak but they are more dedicated to Sila or precepts. And they already have some of the results of the precepts. But they are not very much, they are still not very close to Eightfold Path.

Interpreter : The Eightfold Path theory is one of the most important and very deep, very difficult theor ies to understand, to follow and even to practice. Interpreter : It's the theory that only the Lord Buddha will be able to teach, to find and to teach. Phra Bodhirak says it's even more difficult than Einstein's Theory. English : I think that's perhaps why, on my own part, I try to learn from every angle to try to get a complete picture. So, I can learn from Phra Bodhirak, I can learn from Suan Moak, I can learn from Than Sumait, Ajarn Cha to try, always keeping the Eightfold Path in mind. To try to penetrate deeper with the wisdom that comes from many people who are seeking.

Interpreter : Excuse me. A man : Do you not think that different kinds of practice are valuable for different personalities, different kinds of people. I cannot remember in which of the Sutra the passage occurs but the Lord Buddha once said to that monk who has a good mind, I tell him to read the Sutra; to that monk, I tell him to practice Sila; and to that monk I say meditation is more important.

Interpreter: According to what you said Phra Bodhirak said that People who were born at the same time with Lord Buddha and people who are priests, who are monks in Lord Buddha community, have enough baramee for themselves. They are ready to get enlightened. They need only one special point to get their complete wisdom. So, for example, the one that Lord Buddha said to do this and to do this, that is the last examination and then they will be enlightened. You cannot compare those special cases with us, with people nowaday. We don't have that baramee. We need a very strong theory and principle to follow as a guideline to advance a little bit.

Interpreter : So the Eightfold Path is the path for everybody, especially for beginners like us. For those special cases cited in the Tripitaka, they have already passed this Eightfold Path and they need just the last point to be enlightened. So we nowaday everybody has to follow very strictly the Eightfold Path.

English : I think Khun Yon would like to ask a question. Would you like to ask it yourself, Khun Yon? Korean : Yes. This ... how many followers and the monks of this community?

Interpreter : He knows only the number of the monks. But his followers, he doesn't know the number.

Korean : Believers. Interpreter : Believers like us? He doesn't know the number.

Korean: How many communities in Thailand. Interpreter : For the laity community he doesn't count, but for the monk community we have 4. Korean: Is this reformed Buddhism or not? Korean : For example, in Japan, one of the Buddhists is Shoka Kokai. Or in Korea, one Buddhism, its name of Buddhism, a new community about 50 years ago. One man has founded this community...

Interpreter : Shall I translate first his answer when he answers you about the reform. Or you want me to translate your explanation afterwards.

Korean : No Buddha figure.

English : The first question, is it reformed Buddhism? Korean : Yes.

Interpreter : And he has answered. You want me to translate his answer first about the reform. English : Answer your question, is it reformed Buddhism?

ล่าม : To the question about if Asoke is a reformed Buddhism, Phra Bodhirak has been reformed for a long time. And it has deviated from the real Buddhism. So, now he's the one who will revive fundamental Buddhism.

English : Phra Bodhirak said that Buddhism has been reformed for a long time. Could he please answer the question, who reformed Buddhism?

Interpreter : Lots of people have given hands in reforming Buddhism.

Interpreter : Up till today it is a very big deviation from the real fundamental Buddhism. And he's the one who's going to return or revive the fundamental Buddhism. Korean : Have your community or monk in another country, overseas? Interpreter : No.

Korean : Do you have any foreign monks here? Interpreter : No.

Korean : Do you want to have ? Interpreter : He said it's alright.

Korean : I have read this paper, some. And I don't understand Thai code of criminal, criminal code. But what is the key point of violation of this community? I haven't found that?

Korean : I read one violation of Buddhist discipline is not criminal law. Interpreter : He said he doesn't know. Interpreter : He doesn't know why he was accused in the criminal court.

English : I don't know a great deal about the background to your case, so please forgive me for asking. I had heard that there was one point that the patriarch objected to and it was said that you had not been ordained in the normal way. Is that correct? You had ordained yourself. This is not true.

Interpreter : That is not true. Interpreter : In reality it's not the Supreme Patriarch who accused him.

English : Who accused him? Interpreter : There is somebody with a very prominent personality in Thailand who said a lot of things that make people believe but it's not the Supreme Patriarch. English : May I ask, by whom you were ordained, where?

Interpreter : The Supreme Patriarch and the Ecclesiastical Council, they all know that he was ordained according to the discipline. The first one who ordained him was Phra Rajworakhun from Wat Asokaram. That was when he was ordained in Dharmayutaka Nikai. Later he was ordained in Maha Nikai Sect at Wat Nongkatum.

Interpreter : From what you hear that he was not ordained is wrong because he has been ordained to two sects.

English : I see, that's very interesting.

A man : We have symbols for Christians. Do you have any symbol of this community? Interpreter : What symbol do you mean? A man : For example Buddha figures.

Interpreter : Phra Bodhirak doesn't want his followers to get attached to any form or to any image.

A man : What kind of education system do you have? Education for monks? Education system for monks and the believers, followers?

Interpreter : We have to follow precepts.

A man : For example if I were, if I become a monk then how many years shall I exercise, practice or read the book?

Interpreter : You mean to be a monk ? A man : And for followers, nun?

Interpreter : At first we all have to follow precepts, the five precepts, the eight precepts, the ten precepts and at five precepts, eight and ten and even the five precepts in themselves we have different details and it becomes superior level, advance level. So we have to follow all these different levels, even within the five precepts, within the eight precepts and within the ten precepts.

English Who examines these monks or followers? Interpreter : The monk community. English : Community.

Interpreter : Yes. English : How many members of this?

Interpreter : The committee?

Interpreter : According to the Budddhist discipline written in the script, he formed the order that for each thing, for one certain thing we need a certain number of monks.

Interpreter : The equality is in the result, they can get the same result. But in the regulation, it's not equal.

English : Has the committee of this community women monks, nuns? Interpreter : If it's for the monks affairs, then the women, the female monks will not be involved.

Interpreter : The female novice. But if it concerns the women, then the female novice will be involved.

English : Have you read books about Japan or Korean Buddhism? What reform from Buddhism? Interpreter : No! He has never read that.

English : I just like to ask again, if possible, how many monks or fully ordained monks do you have in this movement? Is it only you who is able to ordain these monks or are they already ordained in Dhammayut or Maha Nikai or some other sect?

Interpreter : Concerning ordination ceremony, there are lots of misunderstandings in Thailand and perhaps in other parts of the world, too. About ordination, people usually believe that Upachaya is the one who can make a man become a monk but that is not true because to become a monk there is a committee of monks and the decision of the jury, committee, monk, has to be unanimous. And it's the jury who accepts the person and it's the jury, the committee who can make that person become a monk. Not the Upachaya. But there is a lot of misunderstanding. People believe that Upachaya is the one who makes people become monks.

English : So, is this normal practice in the monasteries in Thailand, that there is a committee and that it is they who make the decision and the Upachaya is simply the one who carries it out?

Interpreter : They have the committee but they misunderstand the importance and the power of the committee. They just think that the Upachaya is the only one with the whole power.

English : The people think? Interpreter : The people think.

English : But in fact in the monasteries.... Interpreter : They think that, too. English : Does the committee really make the decision or does the Upacha?

Interpreter : Not at all.

Interpreter : In practice nowadays, the committee doesn't have anything to say. It's only the Upachaya who says everything. But in reality, the committee needs to ask questions, needs to examine and needs to judge and needs to give the decision.

English : I see. Is that now it was when the Buddha first founded his community? It was he who laid down this approach to ordination.

Interpreter : Yes.

English : That's extremel