320831 นักวิจัยชาวญี่ปุ่น มาซาโดะ ฟูกูชีมา สัมภาษณ์ พ่อท่านโพธิรักษ์ ณ สันติอโศก ภาษาอังกฤษ.docx

ects he's different but some aspects he's alike. Fukushima : So in what sense he is new. Apilak : The forest monks are those who are too extreme that it is beyond Buddhism, like hermits. Whereas the monks who study Pali become too attached to the theory. He studies Pali and also practices but he is not extreme to any side. Fukushima : So in a sense, it is not a new type or… Yeah, because I wanted to know whether he had a kind of predictism in the past. Apilak : What do you mean predictism? Fukushima : Predictism means a kind of ideal type for him in the past. Fukushima : Yes. For example, some famous monks which he follows. Apilak : He said the Lord of Buddha is the ideal type of monk. Fukushima : Of course, but I mean after, you know, Lord Buddha and he himself, does he find any kind of.. Apilak : He doesn't have any particular person. Fukushima : Why not? Apilak : He said that maybe he himself is the ideal type. He thinks that he's similar to the Lord Buddha when checked with the Phra Tripitaka, Phra Vinai or you can say that he is contented with the forest life but he's not too extreme. Fukushima : So in a sense, he's well balanced between Pali and forest life. So I would like to proceed my questioning about the interpretation of canons. Well actually I find that, you know, the Tripitaka was collected after the death of Buddha and it's almost 500 years. And do you think it is possible to find the real word of Buddha in Tripitaka if you really want to be, you know, precise. Apilak : Yes, there is a lot of the real word of the Lord Buddha and also some that are deviant. Fukushima : Yeah. So, for example, some Pali scholar tries to study Pali then they try to, you know, recover the real original wood for the Tripitaka of Buddha. Apilak : Also studied and practiced step by step until he attained the high level. When you have attained the high level then only you can understand the delicate meaning of Phra Tripitaka. I said that if I translate to you and it is not relevant to his willingness, so... Fukushima : O.K. The reason why I ask this one question is in case of Islam, for example, there are some, you know, fundamental people, you can say the puritanistic people but there's a difference of opinion. What is the original word of Allah? Some say only AL PUK AN. That is the practice of Mohamad. The others say `no!' more than that. It is AL PUK AN and HATEET. So it depends on the person where is the original word, right? In the case of Buddhism, I think Tripitaka is so voluminous. So maybe someone says only this part of the canon is the Buddha's words. But according to him, you know, for example, how many percent of that? Apilak : The real one. So, what exact word did you use? The one that you..you mean the reason for. Fukushima : The real..real original... Apilak : From the Lord Buddha. Fukushima : Yeah. Apilak : He says a lot of that is the real one. Some those parts that were added are good. But the language is communicated in the concrete terms not the abstract terms. The delicate meaning of the Phra Tripitaka is of an abstract one, but usually people cannot understand the abstract meaning of it. Fukushima : Many of them, you mean the monk. Apilak : Because there are no words or language to define those abstract terms, or sometimes they use the concrete examples which deviated the real meaning. For example, the word "passion" which is very abstract or the word "high efficiency" but when we think about the word "high efficiency" sometimes we call it "supernatural power", the ability to do something beyond normal human beings. This could deviate the real meaning. Fukushima : So, actually he says that the abstract one is more important than the concrete examples in Tripitaka, right? Apilak : Yes, of cour se, it's more important because the high level of the abstract, for example, nirvana which is an abstract term, if it's not more important how will you attain the high level. Fukushima : But in that case it means maybe Pali scholars are very important people. They compare spirit words, for example, with the comparative linguistics. But it seems to me they have some according to the understanding of the abstract words so how does he justify his, you know, interpretation about that abstract words. Apilak : He said that those scholars interpret but he is not interpreter. What he said is the truth and he gives the truth to others. He reads the truth in language for others. The fact in abstract terms. Fukushima : So it sounds like it's a kind of a direct perception of reality rather than the interpretation of the canon. Is it true? But in that case why do you need canons? If you can, you know, perceive the reality directly you don't need any Tripitaka just meditate and you understand the reality by through the own experience. Apilak : Phra Tripitaka is source of the truth which you can study and there are so many levels in Phra Tripitaka. So it's kind of text for you to come back and check after you've practiced it. And you can check it from Phra Tripitaka. Therefore, you can see that interpreters cannot understand it because they have not practiced it. He said that it's very hard to make them know or to make them see what he sees, or to make them know what he knows when they cannot see. Fukushima : But if I hear this kind of explanation it experience. Because Lord Buddha never had the Tripitaka in that time because, you know, it's after the Lord Buddha. So, actually when he tried to understand the real truth of the dhamma, actually, he had, you know, no textbook, right? It seems to me Phra Bodhirak's experience right now is just like Lord Buddha's own experience, so... Apilak : He says that it is very hard to say but what the reason why he can learn very quick or quicker is probably the past Baramee Fukushima : Yeah. Because the reason why I ask about this question is that when I was in Indonesia, I saw many gurus, you know, many meditators who found..who say..they found the truth through their own meditation without any textbook. So do you think it can happen? Apilak : Yes, it's possible. Fukushima : Yeah. But in that case, for example, without Tripitaka we can reach the truth. Apilak : You mean in Indonesia's case or in his case? Fukushima : Yeah, in Indonesia's case. Apilak : Yes. He can reach the truth of what he has accumulated from meditation or from his guru. Whereas Phra Bodhirak will reach the truth of what he has accumulated from the Lord Buddha. His truth comes from what he accumulates, maybe from his guru or from his teachers or from Phra Bodhirak accumulated his. Therefore, his truth could be different from the Indonesian man. He accumulated his truth from the teachings of Lord Buddha, therefore he will reach the truth of the Lord Buddha. Fukushima : Yeah, but is it possible that the truth is different in each country? Apilak : It can be different. Fukushima : Really? Oh! Fukushima : Dhamma. Dhamma. Apilak : So you ask the dhamma is different or the truth is different? Fukushima : Dhamma, in this case. Apilak : So, it can be different. The truth in a special way, the truth of Indonesian and the truth of Phra Bodhirak may be different, seem different. Dhamma... Fukushima : But then, how it can be said the truth? Because if one is true, the other is not true, I think. Apilak : This is difficult to understand which is the (absolute) truth. It is like asking whether Lord Buddha is higher than Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ is higher than Lord Buddha. So, as long as each person is satisfied with his own truth, that is OK. Fukushima : Oh! So in this sense he admits, you know, these various saints like Jesus Christ and the best one or which is right and which is not right. Apilak : Yeah, it depends on individual preferences or individual way. So if you can attain this way is alright, attain the high level of this way. So, the important point is that you have to attain the truth point of a particular religion or preferred religion of yours. Fukushima : So, in that case religion is an individual preference rather than the eternal truth. Apilak : Each believes that his is the eternal truth. Jesus regards God as the eternal truth. Lord Buddha regards nirvana as the eternal truth. This is because each person understands that his understanding is the eternal truth. Fukushima : Yeah, of course, but according to his opinion, which is more true? Apilak : He said that he received this truth from Lord Buddha and he understands that this is higher. But we are not supposed to say that ours is better than others. Fukushima : Really? Apilak : So if you like to know about other religions you should study and practice it. When you have attained a certain level, then you can compare it between the two. Fukushima : So, in this sense he is very, you know, permissive to other religions. But in the case of, for example, if there's a difference of understanding about Tripitaka, he is very critical of others. Do you understand what I mean? So why is there a difference of attitude? Apilak : Oh! He criticizes because he thinks that they misunderstand and he said they are like brothers, younger brothers and older brothers, so he can talk to them. But others are of other religions, so he shouldn't say… Others, he should not. Fukushima : O.K. So I would like to proceed to the second question about the interpretation about the word `samadhi' . And actually, Santi Asoke's typical interpretation is the different idea about the samadhi, right? And I get that feeling that even the Lord Buddha himself did a kind of traditional meditation under the Po tree and found enlightenment. So what do they think about the traditional method of meditation which is practiced by the Lord Buddha himself? Apilak : He says that actually the real samadhi which takes you to reach the dhamma level is not that kind of samadhi. Samadhi, I mean the meditation under the Po tree. He says that they misunderstand the point. Actually, he, the Lord Buddha, just sat and closed his eyes just to review the past. What he really taught is the Samma Samadhi. Samma Samadhi which he is corporated with this is the real Buddhist samadhi. And only happens in Buddhism. And other religions do not have the Eightfold Path nor this kind of samadhi. Fukushima : So, it means that, for example, if we read the Jagata story, we find this of, you know, the life history of the Buddha, right? It means he practices meditation under the Po tree and he gets enlightenment. So it means that he has his own idea about Lord Buddha's life history, right? Apilak : He said that he has different delicacy in understanding the life history of Lord Buddha. Fukushima : So, has he ever written, you know, a new type of life history of Lord Buddha in the past? Apilak : He said that the life history of the Lord Buddha is the same as others but the deeper meaning is different. Fukushima : Oh! So, he didn't..You know, the Lord Buddha described sitting under the Po tree like this... Apilak : It's like he also understands and has visualized the fact that Lord Buddha sat under the Po tree but the understanding of that action is different from the understanding of others. But he has the same picture of Lord Buddha's sitting under the tree. You understand? Fukushima : Yes. Apilak : But the action and the result is different. Fukushima : So, my third question is about relationship Actually, our ordinary understanding of Theravada Buddhism is individual oriented and Mahayana is mass oriented, in a sense. But it seems to me that Santi Asoke is quite, you know, mass oriented in a sense because they try to help others or something like that. So does it mean that Santi Asoke includes some elements of Mahayana? Apilak : He said that he's both Theravada and Mahayana. He has no conflict between the two, even though others may have. Actually, one is the benefit of an individual and the other is benefit of the mass (community). These can be combined. In fact, they are the same thing. Fukushima : So, in this sense, it is true for the MahaThera Samakom that Santi Asoke practices are not purely Theravadistic. Apilak : He's not authentic in MahaThera Samakom term. Because MahaThera Samakom terms have wrong understanding about the authentic behaviour. Fukushima : So, it means if we understand authentically about Theravada Buddhism, are there any elements of Mahayannist? Apilak : Yes, of course because I think Theravada cannot understand Mahayan and vice versa that is why there is conflict between these two. Fukushima : Yeah, because the basic text is different. We don't use the Pali text, we use the Sanskrit text. He's still in Theravada, I think. Apilak : He says that it's not strange because he doesn't doubt about, suspect about Mahayana. Fukushima : Yeah. But from the viewpoint of Mahayana Buddhism, Santi Asoke is quite Theravadistic because for example, there's a strict difference between monks and laymen. But as you know, Japanese monks can marry and there's no real difference between a layman and monk. And that's the basic understanding of Japanese Mahayanism. Apilak : He understands it because the Mahayan also the too extreme or converts too much to the secular activity. Fukushima : Also he said the Japanese Mahayanist too secularized. Apilak : Yeah. Theravada following the... Fukushima : Following the Mahayana. Apilak : In Thailand.. Probably, we will win. Fukushima : So according to his understanding, also Mahayana Theravada is right now going to the secularization. So only Santi Asoke is now guarding himself, themselves from the secularization. Apilak : He said that Santi Asoke did not escape from society but he just wants to live in the society as the master not slave of the society. Fukushima : Well, it's very interesting point of Santi Asoke trying to do a very dilemmatic thing. That is to go back to the original Buddhism and to make use of modern life. Like media or printing then I get the feeling that there is a kind of deep dilemma between them. Apilak : There is no problem because we understand very clearly about the world. Even Though the world is going too far, we understand and do not become the slave of the worldly things. Fukushima : But, for example, if they want to attain a kind of an ideal life of Buddha era, I mean Buddha's time, it's better to go to the mountain and, you know, open a Utopianistic Village and you know, rather than staying here. Apilak : Buddhism does not teach us to run away into the forest as you said. Your understanding is not correct and this is also the conservative understanding of Buddhism. When the Buddha said "One should be contented in an empty home or be contented with the forest...", this does not mean the forest in the concrete term. Instead, it meant a spiritual kind of forest in the soul or else in an abstract term. Even when living in the city, we can also have a calm and peace mind which is obsessed by the city life. We are sitting in the forest. This... Fukushima : Then, if that is true then why do they make mind the forest, then that's OK, no need for this kind of..you know? Apilak : This is the truth at a particular level. The city life where there is only cement building is really hot and polluted. It is also unnatural. We have to understand nature and ecology. With just one house like this, we should be satisfied. What is the need for a cement house? We are only making our understanding of reality come true in real life. And there is also no need for one to escape into the forest like a hermit and sit there with the tigers.... We have to understand the importance of ecology and make use of it sufficiently. But if it is the kind of forest where there is malaria and tigers, then that is not the kind of forest that the Lord Buddha would advise us to go to. Fukushima : Oh! Oh! Yeah! Yeah ! So, for example, the use of media includes the song like Apai is O.K. According to his idea, of course, O.K. I think that I mean is it compatible with the Buddha's idea? Apilak : He has contemplated on this point and he thinks that it is O.K. Because we have brains and we know the time and the age, we know how far modernization has gone so that we can relate to their means of communication. And with our intelligence, we shall try to lead them to a life. Fukushima : So actually Santi Asoke is city oriented because Santi Asoke is concerned about the health, concerned about anti-Malaria, concerned about forest life in the mind rather than real forest life. So it means Santi Asoke is kind of a phenomena in the city, urban phenomena, right? Apilak : It has nothing to do with that. Rather, it is our way of teaching, it is our understanding that we have to teach urban people first, because urban people are the examples of rural people. In fact, rural people have a better way of life. Fukushima : But at the same time you know the people in the rural area is tend to pray for some ghost or something like that, right? They are more ritualistic rather than the dhamma seeking in a sense. So I get the feeling that this method of dhamma practice is quite for the intellectual, for the trader or for the middle class, but not for the rural people because they are more superstitious. Apilak : We do not have enough energy to work with the majority who are in the rural area. But those who are influential upon others live in the city. Since there is limited man power, we have not yet worked with those living far in the rural area. Fukushima : Well then, for example, if we see the Santi Asoke philosophy, that is the dhamma practices, working in the daily life. It sounds like the idea from the development monks, right? Because they say the same thing. So then what is the difference between Santi Asoke and the development monks like Ajan Nan in E-San? Apilak : The difference is in terms of base for the abstract term but for the concrete term is quite similar. Fukushima : So what do you mean by the difference of the base of the abstract term ? Apilak : For instant condition of the Eightfold Path and also the understand toward Kilasa and at many levels. Fukushima : So it means if we speak concretely it is quite possible for the Santi Asoke monk to enter the village and they make the almost same thing as the d