321119 นักข่าว PHILIP SMUCKER จากสำนักข่าว UPI สัมภาษณ์ พ่อท่านโพธิรักษ์ สันติอโศก (ภาษาอังกฤษ).docx

n Journal, wrote a story about his group and about the Supreme Journal Patriarch and that newspaper has been banned from Thailand. And does he think this is a problem? Because he also has a press that is banned. And does he see these as two related problems? ÝĹčŇÁ : There's no relationship. But it shows some kind of trend about the government’s opinion on religion. And we can read from what they do and understand what they are doing. Phillip : Some kind of a trend. Did he say what kind of a trend? ĹčŇÁ : He didn't say yet. Phillip : OK. So I gather that he sees this as not being a very good trend. ĹčŇÁ : Good and bad. Phillip : Can see both good and bad? Nevertheless it's a form of expression. Writing. I'm a writer and I would like to feel that if I write my story about Phra Bodhirak or about Santi Asoke then I would not have a problem with the government. So does he see these things as being, we would say in the US, infringement on the freedom of expression. In other words, the chain, I think he has his symbol with the hand in the air with the chain. Well, this hand is trying to talk, to speak but also the government is in chains. Did he see this as an infringement or holding back freedom of expression. ĹčŇÁ : What you asked about the kind of infringe on the liberty of expression, he agrees with that idea, but he Ýsaid that the way they re-act is a kind of protection which with their knowledge of what they have, they feel that they are doing something good to protect. But he himself if he's the government, he will not do that. And he will let people write and express because that is good.. Phillip : Wait! He said if I were the government. ĹčŇÁ : If he were the government, he will not stop the writing and he will let the liberty of expression because he sees the good point in letting people write. He sees both the good and bad points. The government sees only the bad points. Phillip : I see. And now he has this problem of his own. Is he able to put out his own publications now in terms of pamphlets and in terms of spreading his information? Is his press closed but he has opened another business? I like to understand how he's getting his information out now. ĹčŇÁ : We still print. We don't do what is forbidden but what is not forbidden then we can do. So there are lots of things about publications and about printing that are not forbidden. Phillip : OK. So you had to change some things. ĹčŇÁ : Just a little bit. ÝPhillip : What did you have to change? ĹčŇÁ : In form of booklets and in form of journals. Phillip : What did they say that he has had to change? Like the wording specifically, an example, the wording. ĹčŇÁ : The wording that he writes? Phillip : That he had to change. ĹčŇÁ : Oh! No, nothing. Phillip : I thought you said that they had to do some small changes in some of the pamphlets or books. ĹčŇÁ : The government just forbid some of the things, for example, the government forbid.. What the government did with others shows that the government will not stand the criticism or any blame. So we just stop criticism and we stop blaming and we stop pointing out incorrect things, incorrect behaviours which we used to do. So now we stop those things and we go on with the teaching of the Lord Buddha. Phillip : Well, I don't know very much about this. So can he give me an example of what he did before? What incorrect behavior he was pointing to, now that he does not point to any longer because I don't know the history of it Ýso I have to compare. ĹčŇÁ : We lessen examples that we would affect people. Phillip : Before they were naming names and now he doesn't name names. ĹčŇÁ : Usually he doesn't name the person but he will just show the image and the behaviour to be criticized, to be correct and then he shows this, people will understand immediately which group or who has this kind of behavior. Phillip : So now he has to be more general. ĹčŇÁ : What's good and bad? Phillip : A monk was riding around in a mercedes benz. Does he think there's something wrong with this ? Does he think that this is a problem in Thai Buddhism today?, for example. ĹčŇÁ : The point is that those priests keep in position those material things in form of status, in form of riches, personal riches which is not good. But if he will, somebody will, somebody who has a Mercedes Benz and they offer this as service to a certain priest or to a certain temple, there's nothing wrong with that. Phillip : So it's bad when the mercedes benz is a Ýpossession of a monk. But not bad if somebody is chauffeuring driving him around. Can he give me some other general criticism of what is wrong with Thai Buddhism today? What is the big problem with Thai Buddhism today? The biggest problem. ĹčŇÁ : Thai Buddhist, you mean people. Phillip : Yeah! What's the biggest problem with Thai Buddhism today? The Religion. ĹčŇÁ : The problem is that Buddhist people don't know true Buddhism. Phillip : What is true Buddhism? ĹčŇÁ : Each person used to think of his own Buddhism which is different. ĹčŇÁ : And nobody can judge and that is why there is problem about.. Phillip : I think that the Bangkok Post said that Phra Bodhirak, which means the lover of enlightenment is what his name means, the lover of enlightenment. The Bangkok Post said that Phra Bodhirak said that he was the reincarnation of Sareebutra. ĹčŇÁ : Certainly correct. Ý : Sareebutra is a kind of term which means "Butra" is a child, "Saree" is somebody who has the essence of something. And Sareebutra means the child essence of the Lord Buddha's teaching. Phillip : But was Sareebutra a person? ĹčŇÁ : For the moment, Sareebutra no longer exist but the word Sareebutra for the moment has no form, nobody, no physical things. It's just a kind of abstract expression. Phillip : But in the past was there somebody named Sareebutra? ĹčŇÁ : Yes. Phillip : OK. Did he say that he was the reincarnation of Sareebutra? ĹčŇÁ : The word is that but the meaning is not that. Phillip : So he did use these words but he meant something else. ĹčŇÁ : Yes. Because... when he explains something he just explains step by step from concrete to abstract. So we understand when he means concretely or when he comes to Ýabstract. Phillip : So he meant in the abstract way. ĹčŇÁ : Yes, but people who just take a phrase or two, they will not be able to understand it is not concrete or if it is abstract. Phillip : Does he think that...well, in America for instance, I only know about my own culture, we have laws that protect the freedom of religion. You can have any god or you can believe in any theology or religion. If you have freedom of worship, it's in the constitution, so I cannot say that this man cannot worship Jesus and I cannot say that this man cannot worship Mohamad. Does he think that this idea of freedom of worship, freedom of religion, has a partner in Thailand? Is there something like this or is it non-existent? ĹčŇÁ : He doubts also if that exists in Thailand. And for our special case, in Thai constitution, article 25 it was written about liberty of religion and the government said that they have already given us that liberty, only what we teach cannot be different from what the mainstream Sangha teaches. In one word they want to monopolize the teaching and the way of teaching to be only one form and that's according to their thinking,Ýaccording to their belief, according to their understanding. Phillip : OK. Now, what about the trial? Is the trial still going on? Where are we now in the trial? What..Is it continuing and for how long? Maybe you can tell me some of this. ĹčŇÁ : They come to only the first stage of investigating the defender the witness of the defender. And after that it seems that we cannot get together. One time they ask for another process and another time like this. So only one process of.. Phillip : Does he think this is just the government trying to use the fear to make him calm down, not to talk so much. The government uses threats. Or does he think the government is going to put him in jail? ĹčŇÁ : Yes. That is one of the things that they do because they want us to stop whatever we have been doing as much as possible. Phillip : Is Tongbai Tongpound, is he going to be the lawyer in this case? Does he see this case as unique as we talked about this at the FCCT (Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand). Is this case being maybe the first time a monk Ýhas been in this kind of trouble? Is this unique? Does he see this case as being special, unique? Different from the past? ĹčŇÁ : In Thailand? You mean in Thailand. Phillip : Yes, in Thailand. ĹčŇÁ : Yes, the first in Thailand. And he feels that it's also the first in the world. Phillip : Of what? Can he describe it? ĹčŇÁ : What he means is that it's a kind of conflict of interpretation and both sides is correct and both sides have reasons but still one side will find other interpretation wrong. And the other side will also find the other interpretation wrong. It's a kind of communication or language conflict. Phillip : What does he see as the significance of the hand in the air with the handcuffs on? What does this symbol mean to Phra Bodhirak? ĹčŇÁ : It means to forgive. Whatever they do, no matter how violent, how wrong, how bad, we will forgive. Phillip : Has Phra Bodhirak ever studied the Christianity? ÝPhillip : O.K. Does he see this concept of forgiveness is similar to the concept in Christianity? ĹčŇÁ : Yes. Phillip : So he will use this symbol to show the world his forgiveness and non violence and he will continue to carry out his activities to the best of his abilities (just like the restrictions) Phillip : Yes, after all that "yes" ĹčŇÁ : Yes.You have two things to forgive and to be non-violent and to show the world that he will do his best for his possibility. Phillip : Does Phra Bodhirak have a global opinion of how to solve problems like war, misunderstanding. Does he see outside of Thailand like problems in Cambodia, problems in Burma? ĹčŇÁ : Your first question was cold war? Phillip : No. Does he see outside of Thailand how to solve problems, political and religious and problems of freedom of expression which we have in countries like Cambodia and Burma? Does he read about these problems? And does he offer answers to the problems? ÝĹčŇÁ : He cannot answer for the problem and he cannot help solving the problem. But he will try. žč͡čŇš : Try and try. ĹčŇÁ : He will try to let people find the solution of the problem. Phillip : Has he talked to Cambodian monks? ĹčŇÁ : Yes. The Cambodian monk came here and talked to him. Phillip : So he knows about the problems with communism. ĹčŇÁ : His way of working is not to work directly with those people. Not to work directly with Cambodian priests or things like that but he will work with us. He will work with people close to him, he will work with people who have faith in him and who follow his teaching so that these people will be strong and these people will be good and these people will be non-violent. And their strength will be bigger and bigger. The power of this conviction will grow bigger and bigger until this power and this strength can...it will spread in others' minds. And that's the way to help them solve their own problem. ÝĹčŇÁ : We never feel that we want to do anything big but we feel that we want to do something good and very good. And the best and the truth. Phillip : O.K. Earlier he said that if he were the government he would allow all writing and all printing. And he would not ban publications. Does he think there is a possibility that in future he can come to any agreement with the government? That will allow him more freedom of expression. ĹčŇÁ : They have never proclaimed officially that we are banned that we cannot produce any publications. They have never banned that. So there's no public official interdiction. Phillip : They say, it's also an English word. ĹčŇÁ : Interdiction. So if you ask him that question then the question will not be answered because we have never been interdicted, forbidden officially publically. Phillip : But earlier he compared this problem that some of the publications are having. He compared this problem with his own problem and said that this is a... they showed a trend. I have my notes here. ĹčŇÁ : After this signal, we will spend one minute of peace quietly. ÝPhillip : OK. That sounds good... Interesting minute. That's the first time I had a minute of silence in my interview. He said that this is showing the trend in a government that they try to protect themselves. They are afraid of criticism and then you told me that now the Santi Asoke group cannot accept invitations from public institutions like schools, universities. ĹčŇÁ : It's not that we cannot accept. It's because they are forbidden not to invite us. Phillip : I see. OK. Does he see this as the government forbidding the public institutions to invite him to speak. Does he see this as an infringement on his freedom to express his ideas? ĹčŇÁ : It's one of their ways but it doesn't work with us. Phillip : Why does he say it doesn't work? ĹčŇÁ : Because we have lots of way to propagate our religion. The priests of the mainstream are forbidden to contact us, to come here and to talk with us and so he even supports the order by telling them to go back and study their own system, their own principle. And with the people we still have lots of ways to contact them and to teach them Ýaccording to the Lord Buddha's teaching. Phillip : So has he said that the government is not preventing him? I think this symbol that he has the hand with the chain, that means the government is trying to hold him down. But he said the government is not stopping him at all? He's allowed to continue, he feels that his work is continuing with no problems. ĹčŇÁ : Yes, he still feels that he can work. Phillip : Does the Phra object to the order, structure of Buddhism today in Thailand?Does he think that the government should allow more sects, more different, a larger variety of Buddhist practice? There seems to be some conflict because the government wants mainstream. He's different. Does he think the government should loosen the restrictions and allow more individual monks to have different teachings? Phillip : Can he describe how? Phillip : ...He was the government how would he ĹčŇÁ : If he were the government he will let people speak, criticize, discuss, study, so that they will... Phillip : ...and write, don't forget to write. ĹčŇÁ : So that they will understand more and more Ýthe truth. And they will understand more and more what is correct and what is not correct. And he feels that he knows enough and he is strong enough to control the situation. And they will not quarrel. Phillip : Will not quarrel? ĹčŇÁ : Because he can control the situation. For the moment, the government cannot do what he said because they cannot control the situation. So they prefer to stop the confusion. Because if the confusion goes on, if the conflict goes on, they will not be able to control the situation. They will not be able to control the conflict. And that will affect..that affects the security situation of the country because they don't have any knowledge, they don't have the truth not enough to (ăËéŕ˘Ň¨Óšš ) you say empower or impose the others. Phillip : I see. ĹčŇÁ : If they know enough truth and they know enough wisdom, they can control the situation because people who feel that they are wrong they will stop. Phillip : What does he think about the governor of Bangkok? Does he think the governor who he knows is a very good Buddhist?, The governor is a good example for people to Ýfollow, Chamlong? Phillip : Why? Can he explain? ĹčŇÁ : He's intelligent. He's honest. He's sincere and he has enough intelligence to help people to be better. To be less selfish. Phillip : Why do you think that Chamlong said that people who say that the Palang Dhamma Party is connected to the Santi Asoke group are trying to assassinate me, try to kill me. Why does Phra Bhodhirak know he would say this? ĹčŇÁ : It's a warning to those who… It's a warning and an expression to show that Khun Chamlong knows that there exist such people, those who want to destroy him. And it's also a warning to those who want to help him not to be confused and not to feel not to believe such a statement. Phillip : When was the last time he spoke to Governor Chamlong? ĹčŇÁ : About 2 weeks ago. Phillip : Does he know that Chamlong will try to be Governor a second time? ÝĹčŇÁ : He didn't want to know. Phillip : I don't want to know. Does he think Chamlong has some support in his group? ĹčŇÁ : Yes, sure. It's an individual and personal right. Phillip : Does he think all of the major problems in Bangkok could be solved if everybody was a good Buddhist? What does he think? There was another story recently written about Thailand and it said, called it `The Lust Frontier ' Now, this magazine, the Far Eastern Economic Review is in trouble to be banned like the Asian Wall Street Journal, because it talked about massage parlours and the prostitution. It says that it institutionalized in Thailand and it's such a strong business that it cannot be broken because it's the Mafia, controlled by the Mafia. Does he agree? And how does he think this problem can be solved? ĹčŇÁ : Yes! We can stop those institutions only by promoting the understanding of the truth and make people understand the disadvantages and the bad points of those things, so that they themselves will stop. And if nobody gets interested in those institutions then those kinds of institutions will just be destroyed, and will just melt away. Phillip : ...melt away. Some people have said that the Santi Asoke group is interested in socialism not political Ýsocialism but socialism in a sense that everybody would have simple possessions and live simple lives and give things to people that need things. In some ways we call it socialism. What would be called this? ĹčŇÁ : There are few words that he uses from the beginning. These three words are related together and we have to understand the basic conviction, the basic conception, concept of all these words to understand. The first word is Sonk. Sonk means the community of Bud